• dismay3915@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    Persian(Farsi) also doesn’t have a word for “The”. We just say the word. There’s also no gender prefixes. The whole language is gender neutral.

    Our ancestors were really up to something thousands of years ago.

    • thatKamGuy@sh.itjust.works
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      In English, there is an implied difference between “the girl downstairs was playing violin” (‘the girl’ implying expected knowledge - “oh, her”) versus “a girl downstairs was playing violin” (‘a girl’ - random, likely unknown).

      More broadly “a thing” - one of many, “the thing” - a specific one.

      How would that translate to Farsi?

      • dismay3915@lemmy.world
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        19 hours ago

        We do the opposite. If something is known we just say it.

        “The girl(1) is playing(2) violin(3) downstairs(4)”

        دختر(۱) در طبقه‌ی پایین(۴) ویالن(۳) مینوازد(۲)

        To refer to an unknown thing we add a prefix ی to the thing

        A girl -> دختری
        The girl -> دختر

      • balsoft@lemmy.ml
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        Don’t know about Farsi, but in Russian you would have to declare your knowledge and specificity of the subject. You can transmit some of that information by changing word emphasis, but it’s not very clear.

        As for your sentences I would translate them as:

        1. The girl downstairs was playing violin → Девушка [girl] внизу [downstairs] играла [was playing] на скрипке [violin].
        2. A girl downstairs was playing violin - Внизу [downstairs] девушка [girl] играла [was playing] на скрипке [violin].

        The first one puts more emphasis on the “girl”. The second one puts more emphasis on “downstairs”, almost suggesting that the identity of the girl doesn’t matter, kinda “some girl who happened to be downstairs”. But it is not as explicit as a definite/indefinite article for sure.

        If you want to make it certain that the identity of the girl doesn’t matter, you could use an adjective to that extent: Внизу [downstairs] какая-то девушка [some girl] играла [was playing] на скрипке [violin].

        If you want to make it certain that both you and the person you’re talking to know about the girl, you can use a determiner: Та девушка [that girl] внизу [downstairs] играла [was playing] на скрипке [violin].

        • RedAggroBest@lemmy.world
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          1 day ago

          Is the number one used like “a” then? Like a direct translation of the 2 phrases would be “Girl downstairs is playing the violin.” and “one girl downstairs is playing the violin.” As opposed to English using the/a respectively?

    • mirshafie@europe.pub
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      1 day ago

      And it kinda has me thinking what all of that extra fat really does for a language. I never feel confused about meaning when speaking Persian, so the the/he/she/it/they/them really can’t be doing that much heavy lifting if you can just completely ignore it and have a perfectly functioning language without it.

  • okmko@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    Ha! All three of the big East Asian languages also don’t have articles. (It’s also why we drop them all the time when learning to speak English.)

  • EvilBit@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    English acting like it’s not a fucked up language where “the big, red, round, wrapped box” is fine but “the wrapped, round, red, big box” is wrong.

    • Holytimes@sh.itjust.works
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      6 hours ago

      Other then needing to capitalize the. The wrapped, round, red, big box. Is perfectly fine tho?

      Stylistically it’s abnormal so it sounds funny, but grammar wise it’s perfectly fine. It’s just people are use to a common hierarchy adjectives, typically size then shape then color than condition in this case. So anything else sounds weird. But again, that’s entirely just a style choice.

      English is way fucking more flexible then people give think. Style helps make things easier to understand quicker because you have to think about it less. But no information is lost and no confusion is created thus it’s fine objectively speaking.

    • lastlybutfirstly@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      Oh, we know it’s fucked up. I still can’t spell recieve and receipt and I have to look up pretty much every single new word I learn to find out how it’s pronounced.

      • SleeplessCityLights@lemmy.ca
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        In Anglophone school, We were taught as children “I before e, except after c.” This works most of the time, but “reign” breaks the rule. It is not even word orgin as both recieve and reign come from French.

      • EvilBit@lemmy.world
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        18 hours ago

        I thought through it and I’d wager a stiff draught that it ought not be so rough, though as I’m taught, it’s nought to cough at that a sturdy, taut bough would snap under the weight of its idiosyncrasies.

      • kantor@lemmy.ml
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        2 days ago

        Oh, no, it’s wrong grammatically too, they just don’t teach this unless you study linguistics. Most of all languages with fixed word order and some others have a natural order of adjectives. Tom Scott has a great vid about it.

        Yes, Russian has an adjective order too. “A big old blue car” would be «большая старая синяя машина», saying «синяя большая старая машина» implies that “big old car” is a specific term.

        • Holytimes@sh.itjust.works
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          6 hours ago

          It’s not grammatically wrong though. It’s a soft ordering constraint. It’s not a hard syntax rule.

          If you’re being taught in a high-level linguistics class that it’s a hard rule, then that class is dog s***.

          I’ve listened to enough syntacticians ramble about this topic for a life time.

    • farmgineer@nord.pub
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      2 days ago

      It sounds unnatural to me as a native speaker, but I don’t know that it’s “wrong”. Even the Germanic languages as a family don’t consistently have the same order for words like that, which is neat.

      • Holytimes@sh.itjust.works
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        6 hours ago

        It’s because of the adjective order. You grow up hearing everyone else use the same common adjective order. In this case it should be size shape color than condition.

        Overall it would be opinion size, age shape, color, origin material purpose.

        Because everyone uses that same adjective order as a child. You picked up on that so consciously and then adopted that style. There’s nothing that actually prevents you from mixing that up. There’s no rule or some sort of quirk of English that will break if you change that order.

        You’re just not used to any other way so it sounds weird.

        But changing that order won’t create any sort of confusion or loss of understanding. It’ll just make you have to actively think about something thus slowing you down. We’re doing it the way that everyone does it subconsciously is faster because you don’t have to actively think of it.

        So by default you will always choose the fastest way to communicate. Because that’s going to require the least amount of thought for both yourself and the other party.

        But again there is no reason you can’t change it.

        The only real issue I can think of is if you do change it on purpose it would create an emphasis because you’re breaking a normality. Cuz people just subconsciously assume you go from subjective to objective when it comes to adjectives.

        And changes to the standard stand out and thus create points of interest. But again, even that is still not a hard syntax rule.

        English doesn’t really have a lot of hard rules. You can f*** with it real hard and it won’t break. Though you may sound very funny!.

      • EvilBit@lemmy.world
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        2 days ago

        I know it’s not wrong, but it would definitely give one away as a non-native speaker and come across very awkwardly.

  • luciferofastora@feddit.org
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    1 day ago

    Let’s add dialects to the mess:

    While not written in “book” German*, colloquial German may feature des, dat, det or dit instead of das, shorten der to dr or elide parts (like the French l’, except it may be attached to the previous word): Das ist das Problem mit der deutschen Sprache -> Des isch’s Problem mit dr deutscha Sproach

    (“That is the problem with the German language.” Bonus: notice how the demonstrative pronoun “that” is also
    das? Just in case you were hoping it was restricted to “the”…)

    * Hochdeutsch or Standarddeutsch (“High German” or “Standard German”), originally a written form slowly evolved over centuries to be most widely understood and has since been formalised. Informally, the term is also used for a spoken counterpart properly called Bühnendeutsch (“Stage German”), which isn’t always quite as “pure”, hence my distinction.

    I bloody love my language.

      • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
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        22 hours ago

        It’s not that hard once you understand the difference. It’s more like getting a feel for it than following an actual rule, but a good starting point is that が indicates the subject of a clause, whereas は indicates the topic a sentence is in reference to, which can often also be the subject of the primary clause, which is why they get confused.

        For instance, 私が疲れた (watashi ga tsukareta) would mean “I am tired” literally, but it would sound awkward, because the more usual way to phrase this would be closer to “as for me, tired” or 私は疲れた (watashi wa tsukareta).

        It’s not a perfect rule, and there isn’t a perfect way to directly translate it because English (and most European languages) don’t have a comparable grammar structure. But generally if you’re speaking in reference to yourself or another person, the correct particle is usually “wa”, but not always. It just takes practice to get a feel for the exceptions.

        And often enough “wa” is used instead of “ga” for objects and places, but it’s easier to get a feel for the difference. For instance, さっぽろが寒い (Sapporo ga samui) and さっぽろは寒い (Sapporo wa samui) are both correct, but have slightly different meanings, although the English translations of both would sound the same, “Sapporo is cold”.

        The difference is that with “ga,” it’s more like an isolated statement of fact. On the other hand, with “wa” it’s usually being contrasted with something, often implicit and unstated, carrying nuance like “as opposed to where we are” or “as opposed to the rest of Japan” or “as opposed to our other options for a travel destination”, but what exactly it’s being contrasted with is usually clear from the context of the conversation.

        At the end of the day, “ga” is usually cut and dry: it marks the subject of a sentence the same way “wo”, “ni”, “he”, “de”, etc., mark other grammatical cases (direct/indirect objects, prepositional phrases, etc.).

        “Ha” is the only one you need to watch out for with its very distinctive Japanese-ness. Although Korean has a very similar construct.

        Simple as.

      • Lumidaub@feddit.org
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        I prefer dealing with complicated but ultimately rule-based stuff like は/が over the utter nonsense that is grammatical gender (and I’m German).

        Edit: and because I see heated discussion about it elsewhere: grammatical gender is a very convenient thing to have (not to learn) and I wouldn’t abolish it (just wouldn’t want to learn it).

        • novibe@lemmy.ml
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          What’s convenient about it? I genuinely see no benefits, as a native speaker of a gendered language.

          • Lumidaub@feddit.org
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            1 day ago

            Take this example:

            “Bob took his hat out of the bag and dropped it.” What did he drop?

            “Bob nahm seinen Hut aus der Tasche und ließ sie fallen.” “Bob took his male hat out of the female bag and dropped her.” Ah, he dropped the bag!

            There’s better examples, I’m sure, but having gendered pronouns makes references clearer than everything just being “it”. It’s a way to structure sentences that may not be vital to understanding (because obviously there are languages that work perfectly fine without it) but makes it easier. Like capitalising nouns or clear rules for where to put commas can make reading easier.

            • novibe@lemmy.ml
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              That only works if they have different genders. Which is often not the case in most gendered languages.

              “Bob sacó su manzana de la caja y la dejó caer.”

              Bob took his female apple out of his female box and let it (female) fall

              Also from my experience growing and going to school in a gender language (not Spanish btw), grammar classes are way more intense and thorough than for something like English. Most people don’t really have grammar classes in English speaking countries, while I studied it until the last year of high school…

              More complex grammar certainly makes it more difficult to learn, even for native speakers.

              • Lumidaub@feddit.org
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                Yes, that doesn’t negate the fact that genderedness serves a purpose. It’s not simply there to annoy language learners.

                • novibe@lemmy.ml
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                  22 hours ago

                  Of course. But I don’t think that’s the “purpose” of it. It’s good to remember that languages don’t have anything purposeful about them at all. Any characteristic in a language has use, but no purpose.

                  Like living beings languages evolve, and mutate, and useful traits stay behind and spread and less useful ones are forgotten.

                  Gender might sometimes be useful in those situations, but I would be skeptical it’s the main reason it appeared and kept being used.

            • Strider@lemmy.world
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              Wow, nice, danke.

              But I honestly don’t think the effort/price is worth it. You can make unambiguous references if required.

              • Lumidaub@feddit.org
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                That’s the thing, it’s only an effort if you’re actively learning the language. Natives think about the gender of nouns only in certain, rare edge-cases that are ill-defined, like loanwords or “artificial” words (Nutella is gender-fluid). It would make more sense to just define those edge-cases than to try to get rid of gendered nouns.

                • Strider@lemmy.world
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                  21 hours ago

                  Also wenn ich mich umsehe wie falsch das heute genutzt wird habe ich dich ernste Zweifel am Nutzen gerade wenn es auf Englisch so einfach ohne geht 😁

      • farmgineer@nord.pub
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        Gwa.

        (There are whole books written about the usages, but this is far from the worst thing to get wrong if you’re new to Japanese so don’t worry).

  • Victor@lemmy.world
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    I don’t get it, is Russian the worst here? I understand Finnish and Polish are pretty difficult in terms of these things as well (?).

      • Victor@lemmy.world
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        Is it done in Russian by prefixes or suffixes or something else, or do they just not have that form for nouns?

        • drath@lemmy.drath.ru
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          There’s no prefix, so when “the” is used for emphasis it’s completely lost in translation. “The Great Gatsby” is just “Великий Гэтсби”. Though that little ий hides the same complexity as german as it implies male and that this is used in a sentence just to name something. If Gatsby was female it’d be “Великая Гэтсби”, and if it was something ungendered, like a place somewhere, itd be “Великое Гэтсби”. And on that part about placement in the sentence, it could be something like [an achievement of] Великого(male) / Великой(female) Gatsby, like when talking about belongings or actions of someone; Or [I gave something to] Великому/Великой, and a few orhers. As you can see there are duplocates and ambiguities. Add present/past/future tenses to the mix and it becomes a complete mess.

            • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
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              23 hours ago

              Except that’s all gender rather than the article function (distinguishing if something is specific or generic). A language without articles doesn’t distinguish between “get in the car” and “get in a car” and instead rely on the person listening to know whether there’s a specific car to get into

              • Victor@lemmy.world
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                22 hours ago

                I see, yeah. So Russian doesn’t have article, but only genders, is what you’re saying?

  • affenlehrer@feddit.org
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    2 days ago

    I don’t know about Russian but at least Croatian which is also a Slavic language confuses the hell out of me (and I’m German)

      • hakase@lemmy.zip
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        Technically it’s the other way around - the ones German lost in comparison to Russian were the Instrumental and Prepositional (Locative).

        This is from the original 8 (or 9) cases in their ancestor, Proto-Indo-European: Nominative, Accusative, Instrumental, Dative, Ablative, Genitive, Locative, Vocative, (Allative).

        • DampCanary@lemmy.world
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          Croatian has 7 cases (padeža), it lost ablative and allative while russian additionally lost vocative.
          Which seems like insignificant difference.

          • hakase@lemmy.zip
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            It’s always interesting seeing which of the daughter languages lose which cases.

            Tocharian lost all of the cases but three (Nominative, accusative, and genitive), but then added five more of its own creation! For Tocharian B, these are the perlative, comitative, and (a new) allative, ablative, and locative!

    • DasFaultier@sh.itjust.works
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      confuses the hell out of me (and I’m German)

      And rightfully so. I’m also German, I learned Sorbian (slavic minority in Lusatia), and I can very much feel your pain.

    • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world
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      it doesn’t really use article at all.

      it’s highly cased, the cases and inflection do all the work.

    • PostingInPublic@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      And they aren’t clear when to use them either, it’s kinda cute when they look at you questioningly if they did correctly after formulating a sentence.

    • Dicska@lemmy.world
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      Neither does Polish. I know at least one polaka who confuses the/a(n) 15% of the time.

      • addie@feddit.uk
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        One of my Polish colleagues, who otherwise speaks pretty perfect English, seems to choose he/she/it at random when putting sentences together. Which is fine for objects, but misleading for people. “I saw a friend yesterday and she said such-and-such” for a male friend, and so on.

        • DeLancre@piefed.social
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          Slavic languages notoriously have gender for every object. In russian “friend” have two variants, one for male gender, one for female. Same at least with Ukrainian and Serbian. So when I translate sentence to English (which only have one word for “friend”) I subconsciously use default word + she/he to empathize gender.

          It’s annoying habit, cause when I say or refer to “user” for example, I always assume it’s “he/him”.

          Guess same for your colleagues.

        • Dicska@lemmy.world
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          …which sounds surprising to me, because AFAIK Polish also has separate he/she words (on/ona).

          • Aqarius@lemmy.world
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            I assume he’s aligning the pronouns to the gender of the noun, rather than the person. “Susie is a great worker, he’s very efficient” kind of stuff.

            • Lumidaub@feddit.org
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              I’d be surprised if there weren’t a female “worker” in Polish, “workeress” as it were, same for any other such nouns.

              • Aqarius@lemmy.world
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                Depends on the exact word. For example, person is grammatically female, even if the actual person isn’t. Or, a lot of times you can make a different form, but you don’t strictly need to.

                It’s actually somewhat of an ongoing debate in places WRT professions: declaring whatever the current word is to be gender neutral, or having mandatory versions for both male and female (German /inen approach).

    • BenVimes@lemmy.ca
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      I think it’s the case with most Slavic languages. My wife’s native tongue is Serbian, and knowinf when and how to use articles was one the hardest parts of learning English for her.

    • farmgineer@nord.pub
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      Most (if not all) Slavic-family languages do not. Neither do Japanese nor Korean. Some languages have a partial system (i.e. no a/an but the to show definiteness). Some languages have both but do it differently (Scandanavian languages suffix the definite article on nouns, but the indefinite precedes the noun like in English). Languages are messy and neat.