I used to work in the trades. So many guys made a huge display of themselves to prove they were “men.” Often that included hate. They hated women, queer people, younger people, people from different backgrounds, people they considered beneath them or people who were brave enough to be their true selves.
They made all their insecurities everyone elses problem. It was easy to identity their insecurities because they were so simple and basic that whatever they complained about was actually a huge insight into how they viewed the world. If they complained about women being whiny, emotional and manipulative, it’s because that’s how they acted themselves. How else would they know intimately know about what it is to be whiney, emotional and manipulative?
I had to quit the trades and my apprenticeship. I received so much hate and they were all convinced I was gay and hated me for the assumption they made about me. It’s so strange that they focused on my sexuality when I never spoke word of it to any of them. Even stranger that they went straight for the gay thoughts immediately. Well… Maybe not that strange…
Currently in the trades and I personally haven’t seen too much of that but that may also be due to being in MN. We had one guy who was pretty bad but he moved back down to florida pretty quick because he hated living in a “liberal hellscape”.
I agree that most of the team aren’t always terribly politically correct in their speech but it’s always performative crassness with the boys without any actual hostile intent. For example shortly after I first got hired on I was helping a couple of more senior techs install a new piece of equipment and there was an issue with the equipment so our sales guy who sold it stopped down to check it out. He looked at the issue and said “Well, that’s fucking gay.” Then he noticed I was there (we hadn’t met yet) and he said “Wait, you’re not gay are you? Because that’s whatever. But this is gay. Uh… A different gay?” But other that stuff like that I’ve never heard bigotry with any actual intent behind it.
As far as misogyny goes I haven’t heard any from any of the team (other than the prick mentioned earlier). Of course that could also be because our dispatchers are women and pissing off dispatch is a sure fire way to get stuck with the worst jobs. As far as racism goes the closest I’ve heard is guys hating working on certain sites because most of the people there don’t speak english. But even then, the complaint is never about the people but rather about how much of a pain it is to try to communicate technical information across a language barrier.
That’s not to say I work with a bunch of saints of course. Some of my coworkers can be catty as fuck. But if any of the guys ever want to actually shit talk a coworker it’s always about the quality of their work or general intelligence. To your point about projection, it is usually the guys that do the worst work whining about the quality of others work.
It is also still a team of white men who are at least seemingly cishet. But at the same time, we’re perpetually hiring and at least over the past year we haven’t had any applicants who aren’t the same. So we’re exactly as diverse as our applicant pool.
I caught the tradies who were doing my roof having an argument about Hamlet while in the queue for the chippy.
Which was a surprise.
I live in a very diverse area so that workplace was very diverse. I got to witness and experience a diverse range of hate. A lot of that hate was subtle to the point where it was easy to mistake it was a playful joke.
It was COVID that broke the walls down. Asking these guys who put all their personality into being “men” to care for their community (in this specific case, their coworkers) was taken as a personal attack and so they stopped being subtle with their hate. Standing back and reflecting, it was always hate. They were holding back because they didn’t feel embowered to speak their hate before COVID and the changes it brought.
Some guys absolutely hated that one project manager was a woman and had to take instructions from her. All the Chinese people were hated on because of COVID. So many guys were clearly threatened by the one openly gay guy working there even though the dude was minding his own business in the shipping department.
I have had so many guys attack the quality of my work but it was never about the quality of my work. It was because I worked by myself without their help, I worked efficiently because I focused on one task at a time, I put attention into the presentation of my work and because I was able to put boundaries down when it came to dealing with authority. It took me zero effort to make them feel insecure about themselves. Unsurprisingly, they lashed out at me.
That workplace was so toxic. I could live a healthier life in the wilds of Chernobyl compared to being there. I’m glad I kicked over the flaming garbage can on the way out.
Damn. That’s fucking awful. I’m sorry you had to deal with that. It makes me extra glad for the crew I work with.
Same with men who hate gays, trans people or people with a different skin colour really
It’s always kind of funny how whenever the facists hold a rally grinder activity surges in the same area.
Isn’t that always the case with haters? Your downvotes show there are even a few here in this very community… disappointing. Or maybe it’s just the mansplainy way you worded this: “in my experience” for something that’s blatantly obvious to everyone.
I agree with OP but I was also considering downvoting because the post just doesn’t feel like a shower thought. In the end I didn’t but I could definitely see people downvoting for that reason.
This feels more like an offmychest or casualconversation post than a showerthoughts post.
bingo. it’s rage bait gender war bullshit, also it’s faux deep. there has been a consistent influx of ragebait posting on fedi by bad actors.
shower thoughts are supposed to be stupid nonsense. not trying to start a flame war that is super serious, as many of the replies here are leaning right into.
it’s just another bitter person blaming other people for being bitter, but in a different way than they are bitter.
As if there is some evolved state of gender enlightenment or people who don’t generalize other groups of people…
I down voted for the double “are are” in the title.
Weird.
In my experience, the women who hate men, are the things they hate about men.
Women aren’t sexual predators or enact violence at nearly the same levels as men.
But I promise you those two things are the top reasons why women don’t like many men.
Most men aren’t sexual predators
Yeah only like 1/3. I also said “many”. Not “all”.
It’s still a very high risk number.
The good men out there should be just as outraged as women about the shit ones making women scared of men.
It harms them too.
It definitely isn’t anywhere near 1/3
Also “good” men can’t control what other people do.
You are wrong as 1/3 of college age men will admit to SA. Those are just the ones willing to admit it. There is a reason every women I have ever had the privilege to talk to about this reality has been SA including my wife, my mother, and my daughters.
About 30% of men report sexual assault against women. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2021-33505-001
23% of men are pedophiles https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8848059/
When college male students were surveyed. 1 in 9 committed sexual aggression within the previous year. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/10790632211051682 That’s just in a 1 year time. For boys.
Although you often see “1 in 5 women will be sexually assaulted”. The truth is it’s nearly 100%. Sexual assault is largely under reported.
Every single woman I know has a bad story that technically fits the criteria for sexual assault.
Also. Most men/boys who are assaulted, are also assaulted by men.
Men who get mad at these statistics somehow blame women for saying “all men are predators” or “most men”.
Yeah .well actually it is a very large chunk. 30% admit to sexually assaulting a woman. there are also other sexual predator acts and behaviors like stalking. Coercion. Manipulation. Drugging.
Getting on telegram and asking how to drug your gf.
Or drugging your wife and letting a bunch of men have unprotected sex with her.
And I agree you can’t control what other men do.
But when so many men see this shit going on and say nothing. Do nothing. when they could stop it,… Well. You see why women don’t trust most men.
If you would stand by and let it happen and not say anything, you are part of the problem. Men know other men won’t hold them accountable.
And no one (law enforcement) listens to women who come forward.
Without other men holding men accountable, nothing will change. And we know it.
Regardless if you are a woman or not. These statistics should anger you. You should be infuriated that this is how many men conduct themselves.
Hold your own group accountable. I hold women accountable for their crimes against others. They don’t get a pass because we are in the same group.
True as well
Haters have no gender.
Exactly
Anyone can be a hater
We need more love in this world
Where are these men? I’ve never met one. I know men who hates some particular women but never anyone who hates all of them. Perhaps hate isn’t the best word to describe what you actually mean here.
Word. I’m like very stereotypically straight white guy. I know plenty of these men.
Seriously? The entire manosphere hates women. They view them as entirely transactional.
Andrew Tate is around women all the time. He actively seeks their company even. That’s not what someone who “hates all women” would do. That’s why I’m saying that hate isn’t probably the best term here. You’re talking about something else.
Did slave owners love blacks ? I mean they kept buying them. They had them make their food. Wash clothes. They were always around the house.
Surely if they surrounded themselves with black people that must mean they don’t hate them or see them as lower than themselves.
Well, first of all, it’s not a binary choice between love and hate and secondly, I don’t think most slave owners hated black people. They saw them as inferior or sub-human but that’s a different thing. Almost like how we treat animals at factory farms. We don’t do that because we hate cows, pigs and chickens.
Did you know that after slavery was abolished in the U.S, there were many laws passed to ban blacks from using the same water fountains. Restaurants. Bathrooms and schools.
Because many whites thought that blacks were “dirty” and didn’t want them to touch the same things that they had to touch.
Do you think that freeing blacks in the U.S caused many whites to suddenly hate them or isn’t it more likely that hate was always there it just became more public?
I think you might find the Standford prison experiment of interest.
It’s a flawed experiment, but it does illustrate how looking down at another human is a form of hate.
Because ultimately the hostile person believes the victim to have caused their place in life.
They choose to be a pathetic. And lowly.
Humans are not evaluated the same as animals. People are racist against other humans. Or hate them for their nationality.
People don’t have those beliefs about animals.
We are social creatures. We value social rules and social interactions with humans. And a lot of that is exclusive to other humans. We don’t extend those interactions to other animals.
No, I don’t think I am. He doesn’t like women. He likes the status they give with other men. He likes their vaginas to fuck. But he doesn’t like women.
Here’s a simple example to show my point. If you like somebody, you would spend your time doing the activities they like to do, do you can be with them and learn more about them. Fair?
Do you think Andrew Tate would sit and watch the entire series of Gilmore girls with someone if it wasn’t just to fuck them?
Not liking and hating are different things.
You can I may have different definitions, but I think if you treat a human being like an object to be used, that’s hate.
Thats like a racist saying that there are some good blacks
Saying “I’ve never met a man who hates all women, only specific ones” is not the same as a racist saying “I hate all black people except a few good ones.”
The first is observing that blanket hatred of an entire sex is rare. The second is still expressing racial hatred while making a token exception. Equating the two is a false equivalence that dodges the actual point.
Men who hate women in generally will usually keep it to themselves in public for the most part. They’re not going to go on a tirade about how much they hate women to someone they don’t think is going to disagree with them, which might explain why you’ve not seen it personally.
And have you seriously never heard of incels? I’m not saying hating women is inherent to inceldom, but it’s pretty damned pervasive among them. Especially in online spaces.
Here’s some reading if you can be bothered.
https://www.splcenter.org/resources/reports/mens-rights-movement-spreads-false-claims-about-women/
Men who hate women in generally will usually keep it to themselves in public for the most part. They’re not going to go on a tirade about how much they hate women to someone they don’t think is going to disagree with them, which might explain why you’ve not seen it personally.
Exactly this. Misogynists don’t talk about that shit with men who they don’t already know share the same views. They are universally fragile and insecure. They don’t want their beliefs challenged especially not by another guy. The way it works is, if they don’t know you they will say something that teeters on the edge of misogyny without being egregious enough that they will get called out for it. If you entertain whatever they say then they’ll start going mask off around you because they know you’re “safe”. If they get rebuffed then they keep the mask on around you.
I’ve known a couple of guys where various women have said that they were sexist creeps but I never got that from them. But in hindsight for both of those guys I remember an interaction where they would say something about a woman or women in general which just verged on inapropriate withough going into “dude wtf” territory. Both times I essentially just gave them a weird look and they never got near that line with me again.
This is why most guys don’t see misogyny nearly as often as women do. When a misogynist “tests the waters” with another guy they do it in a way that is subtle enough to seem entirely innocuous in the moment.
