The government is fascistic. The people in the government, and those who support it, are fascists. “Society”, means all the people together, just like in the above comment, “Israelis” are all the citizens.
“All the citizens of a place” is not a group you can just bunch up, that’s just racism.
There isn’t actually anything connecting them, apart from birthplace.
Bunch up groups with real stuff they have in common: Beliefs (Zionism in this case), or money (rich people and their suck ups), or real societal role (cops, military).
Those things are real. “Nationality” (one step removed from “race”) is not real. Don’t fall for the intellectual trap, that any of that matters as to which people are “good” or "bad
like 15%, but they’re there. Any time you get a group that big there’s going to be dissenters. There’s a far right, a mid-right and some centre-right moderates. No one left of that would want to live there in the first place. There’s like a slim 15% that aren’t fully supporting what’s going on there. Remember, the vast majority of Jews, don’t live in Israel. The few who do are a self-selected group who tend toward ethno-nationalism and/or religious nationalism. It’s not a race thing, it’s not “the Jews,” and it’s actually not unreasonable to be very suspect of Israeli nationals, though it’s very wrong to associate diaspora Jews with that perspective. Wealthy Zionists in other countries definitely are part of it, but they’re more of a loud and influential minority outside Israel. It’s actually a far cry from disparaging all Jews, because again, most Jewish people, aren’t Israeli and have either left as soon as they could, our never were in the first place, and Israel the state is far from representative of the whole ethnic/religious group as a whole.
I mean, I fully agree with what you’re saying, as long as this sentence is true:
“Israelites who desire to leave Israel, can do so”.
Is it? I come from a poorer country, where “leaving” is something many people want to do, but not so many can. It takes a lot of money and/or financial security to leave your homeland, in our case, and that includes the wealthier part of European countries, moving to the less wealthy ones. Same currency, no passport required, and it’s still difficult.
Maybe Israel is different, being a younger, richer, more artificially developed country (mostly non-natives). I have no idea.
I mean it literally, when I say this:
Maybe this specific country(Israel), due to historical and material reasons, functions differently than other countries, and the identity of “Israeli” shouldn’t get the same treatment as other national identities.
As a thought, all that sounds to me “too convenient to be true”, but boy, do you find me lacking in historical context.
You’re right, and there are indeed some left-leaning Israelis that live there, have a hard time getting out, and oppose the majority. There is, however, a very supportive pipeline out for most in that most have family elsewhere that will sponsor their emigration and extensive diaspora communities to support them. The percentage of left leaning Israelis that remain Israeli is very small because it’s relatively easy for them to leave compared to many countries, and in recent history they’ve enjoyed relative freedom of movement in wealthy western countries. It’s a unique situation. Meanwhile there’s a number of programs within Israel and in other countries to help encourage more nationalist-minded Jewish people from around the world to resettle in Israel.
The part that’s hard for some people to wrap there head around is that there’s actually institutional infrastructure to aid inward migration of right wingers and outward migration of everyone else, so you kind of have a distilled right-wing oriented culture within the country. It’s not a normal circumstance that you would find in most places where there’s a high level of social and institutional friction that keeps the ratio more balanced. The ones stuck are the ones with so little social and financial means, they’re politically too marginal to matter. I’m definitely sympathetic to those poor souls, but numerically, politically, and culturally too insignificant to count. There’s a better than 90% chance if you meet an Israeli, they’re proud of what their government is doing. That by no means reflects the sentiment of Jews worldwide
Aggregate public opinion, both the real, and especially through bullshit polls during authoritarian (read: dangerous) times, is at the whims of the government.
If the government bombards people with an idea, people without a robust opinion, will believe it.
Hate the people who act. The government, and the part of the public that is taking real Zionist action, participating in the ideology.
As I said in the other comment, the idea of “Israelis” is not real enough to justify hating the group. Putting all of them in the same basket is racism, because many of them (perhaps 20%, doesn’t change my argument), have neither the desire nor the power to contribute to the genocide, and part of those is fighting against.
Name the groups you hate by their real characteristic (violent fascists), because hating “people of a nation” is just being racist, and missing what the actual danger is.
I’m not quibbling over the definition of “plenty” (a word I did not say) when people are arguing that being born in Israel makes you far right, on a thread about two Israelis being threatened with murder for exposing the genocide to an international audience. Do we really need to have a ‘where you are born is not a moral statement’ discussion?
My point is the ratio is so skewed that you can effectively ignore the minority as inconsequential.
I am not advocating punishing all isrealis indiscriminately based on the actions of the majority. I am just saying that Israelis are far right and I don’t see a lot of value in adding any caveats after such a general statement.
The mental gymnastics necessary to say this in a thread about two Israelis being threatened with murder for their activism related to exposing the genocide is absolutely wild. Much less to call it inconsequential.
They’re also being threatened with having their citizenship revoked, because not being far right is considered incompatiable with being isreali by the isrealis.
You are demanding an asterisk and foot notes to my joke comment about the pervasiveness of far right beliefs shared by the overwhelming majority of Israeli citizens where I acknowledge the obvious: not 100% of the people share these beliefs. Yeah, no duh - that genuinely goes without saying, it’s true for literally every generalization.
The level of accuracy you are requesting is (and I don’t mean this as an insult) autistic. There are unspoken elements involved in human interaction and the acceptance that a generalization does not apply 100% is something I should be able to take for granted in a Lemmy comment.
“Far-right isrealis”
But you repeat yourself
Nah, there’s plenty Israelis fighting for Palestine, and against their government. If it was “far-right Zionists”, then I’d agree
There’s not plenty, there’s few. It’s a sick supremacist society.
The government is fascistic. The people in the government, and those who support it, are fascists. “Society”, means all the people together, just like in the above comment, “Israelis” are all the citizens.
“All the citizens of a place” is not a group you can just bunch up, that’s just racism.
There isn’t actually anything connecting them, apart from birthplace.
Bunch up groups with real stuff they have in common: Beliefs (Zionism in this case), or money (rich people and their suck ups), or real societal role (cops, military).
Those things are real. “Nationality” (one step removed from “race”) is not real. Don’t fall for the intellectual trap, that any of that matters as to which people are “good” or "bad
like 15%, but they’re there. Any time you get a group that big there’s going to be dissenters. There’s a far right, a mid-right and some centre-right moderates. No one left of that would want to live there in the first place. There’s like a slim 15% that aren’t fully supporting what’s going on there. Remember, the vast majority of Jews, don’t live in Israel. The few who do are a self-selected group who tend toward ethno-nationalism and/or religious nationalism. It’s not a race thing, it’s not “the Jews,” and it’s actually not unreasonable to be very suspect of Israeli nationals, though it’s very wrong to associate diaspora Jews with that perspective. Wealthy Zionists in other countries definitely are part of it, but they’re more of a loud and influential minority outside Israel. It’s actually a far cry from disparaging all Jews, because again, most Jewish people, aren’t Israeli and have either left as soon as they could, our never were in the first place, and Israel the state is far from representative of the whole ethnic/religious group as a whole.
I mean, I fully agree with what you’re saying, as long as this sentence is true:
“Israelites who desire to leave Israel, can do so”.
Is it? I come from a poorer country, where “leaving” is something many people want to do, but not so many can. It takes a lot of money and/or financial security to leave your homeland, in our case, and that includes the wealthier part of European countries, moving to the less wealthy ones. Same currency, no passport required, and it’s still difficult.
Maybe Israel is different, being a younger, richer, more artificially developed country (mostly non-natives). I have no idea.
I mean it literally, when I say this:
As a thought, all that sounds to me “too convenient to be true”, but boy, do you find me lacking in historical context.
You’re right, and there are indeed some left-leaning Israelis that live there, have a hard time getting out, and oppose the majority. There is, however, a very supportive pipeline out for most in that most have family elsewhere that will sponsor their emigration and extensive diaspora communities to support them. The percentage of left leaning Israelis that remain Israeli is very small because it’s relatively easy for them to leave compared to many countries, and in recent history they’ve enjoyed relative freedom of movement in wealthy western countries. It’s a unique situation. Meanwhile there’s a number of programs within Israel and in other countries to help encourage more nationalist-minded Jewish people from around the world to resettle in Israel.
The part that’s hard for some people to wrap there head around is that there’s actually institutional infrastructure to aid inward migration of right wingers and outward migration of everyone else, so you kind of have a distilled right-wing oriented culture within the country. It’s not a normal circumstance that you would find in most places where there’s a high level of social and institutional friction that keeps the ratio more balanced. The ones stuck are the ones with so little social and financial means, they’re politically too marginal to matter. I’m definitely sympathetic to those poor souls, but numerically, politically, and culturally too insignificant to count. There’s a better than 90% chance if you meet an Israeli, they’re proud of what their government is doing. That by no means reflects the sentiment of Jews worldwide
I think something like 80% of the Israeli public thinks they’re not going hard enough in Gaza
Aggregate public opinion, both the real, and especially through bullshit polls during authoritarian (read: dangerous) times, is at the whims of the government.
If the government bombards people with an idea, people without a robust opinion, will believe it.
Hate the people who act. The government, and the part of the public that is taking real Zionist action, participating in the ideology.
As I said in the other comment, the idea of “Israelis” is not real enough to justify hating the group. Putting all of them in the same basket is racism, because many of them (perhaps 20%, doesn’t change my argument), have neither the desire nor the power to contribute to the genocide, and part of those is fighting against.
Name the groups you hate by their real characteristic (violent fascists), because hating “people of a nation” is just being racist, and missing what the actual danger is.
You need to consider who made that study, who they interviewed for it and why.
Assuming those numbers are correct, 1 in 5 Israelis aren’t real?
You think 1 in 5 people not in favour of finishing the genocide is “plenty”?
I’m not quibbling over the definition of “plenty” (a word I did not say) when people are arguing that being born in Israel makes you far right, on a thread about two Israelis being threatened with murder for exposing the genocide to an international audience. Do we really need to have a ‘where you are born is not a moral statement’ discussion?
If we were talking about the GOP would I need to make caveats for the small percentage of them who don’t support Donald Trump?
I wasn’t aware you could be born as a member of the GOP 🤨
My point is the ratio is so skewed that you can effectively ignore the minority as inconsequential.
I am not advocating punishing all isrealis indiscriminately based on the actions of the majority. I am just saying that Israelis are far right and I don’t see a lot of value in adding any caveats after such a general statement.
The mental gymnastics necessary to say this in a thread about two Israelis being threatened with murder for their activism related to exposing the genocide is absolutely wild. Much less to call it inconsequential.
They’re also being threatened with having their citizenship revoked, because not being far right is considered incompatiable with being isreali by the isrealis.
You are demanding an asterisk and foot notes to my joke comment about the pervasiveness of far right beliefs shared by the overwhelming majority of Israeli citizens where I acknowledge the obvious: not 100% of the people share these beliefs. Yeah, no duh - that genuinely goes without saying, it’s true for literally every generalization.
The level of accuracy you are requesting is (and I don’t mean this as an insult) autistic. There are unspoken elements involved in human interaction and the acceptance that a generalization does not apply 100% is something I should be able to take for granted in a Lemmy comment.
Electoral history suggests “plenty” is not the word
TIL the Israeli filmmakers they’re threatening to murder for making documentaries about the genocide are far right