For the life of me, I don’t understand why we as a species try so hard to make life worse for everyone.
Because some people have a hoarding disorder.
deleted by creator
Let me know when they can block my paper road atlas.
Oh no, not something to push people to adopt new block 3 capable receivers!
Surely they won’t just use $20 glonass or beidou receivers…
GPScels cope and seethe, unguided projectile and mapchads stay winning
Yes we all watched that Veritasium video.
Words cant describe how much i despie terrorist “state” of russia
watch out, or you might be kicked off your instance :D
Why?
While certainly not all .ml users love russia, all russia lovers are in .ml.
Oft course thats not entirely true, but there are some weird communities there.
Hey now let’s be far not all of them are on .ml at least not exclusively. I’m sure there are plenty on hexbear for example.
How bad would GPS outage actually end up being? I am assuming that shipping and aviation are the most serious potential problems, what kind of backup do they have if any?
Normal people can just read a map easily enough without it, but that isn’t such an easy option at sea or in the sky.
Normal people can just read a map easily enough
As someone I know says, “have you met people?”. There are many who cannot get around without GPS and direction, and some are well aware of this.
How did those people function in society in the past? GPS is pretty new. At some point it is just a skill issue.
it’s the same situation with writing cursive. use it or lose it. and for the effort in using it for little to no gain, or even a detriment, why would you put forth the effort to learn such skills? especially since now a days you have to pick up ten times the skills of people in the past
We’ve had boats and aircraft for longer than we’ve had GPS so we’d be fine. It would be a pain but not devastating.
Things like missiles and other devices with no human operator they’d have to rely on inertial navigation systems which are notoriously inaccurate. So that would be a problem. There’s a new system which works on quantum magic nonsense but I have no idea how accurate that is.
Isn’t inertial stuff mainly for ICBMs, shorter ranged missiles don’t care about their position around the planet. Though I think medium range stuff often does use it
The missile knows where it is at all times, because it knows where it isn’t.
(Link, if you are one of the lucky 10000)
My father was an airline captain. When he started flying, VOR was a major navigation aid, and I imagine most airplanes have VOR receivers (highly directional radios). The next big upgrade were inertial navigation systems, but I don’t know if newer planes have then, since GPS was considered pretty resilient, due to the sheer amount of satellites. But yeah, planes have been getting to their destinations by one way or another since the beginning.
Planes also use automated celestial navigation since they are above the clouds.
My dad w his drawer full of old road atlases: “WHATS UP NOW MOTHERFUCKERS!!?”
Digital maps would still work, you’d just have to know where you are. Just like old books
Like in the before time?
In the before times we barely had mobile phones to go with the digital maps. We were out there printing Mappy itineraries into a stack you’d better not lose
I actually considered getting a couple maps like that lol. Nostalgia, but also redundancy. Also it would be kind of funny to fold out one of those giant maps while everyone else just whips up google maps. We’re going retro, bitches.
Looks up Here in the map index… D3 sees this side of the map starts at 13, flips map over, finds D and 3, looks up and slams on brakes before rear ending an even more lost pedestrian.
“You should watch where you’re driving,” my passenger says before their eyes return to their phone.
Honks horn, pedestrian is startled out of examining their map, gives a sheepish wave of apology and speeds off. Return to map, notice there’s a big traffic jam on the intended route, turn down a side street instead, thanking map for helping.
Store the maps in a laptop case so people think you are breaking out the pc.
Also I love maps and as a kid, in the 80s I had maps of just about everywhere, I collected park maps from all the places I hiked and had geological survey maps of the state I lived in. I kept all the maps in the back of my Datsun 510 station wagon. I got lost very often when driving but I would pull over a dig through the maps till I figured out where I was. I did have one of those big roll up maps that you see in old schools, where you could pull it down and it would roll itself back up, but it from the 40s and it’s Africa so there is not any real information on it but it was fun to haul it out un roll it and say " nah I don’t think that’s it" and let it flap around as it rolls up.
I went looking for an image of my map, and found one. https://oldnewhouse.com/products/vintage-classroom-pull-down-map-of-africa-2196?srsltid=AfmBOoqDLztG46dLMq7Eh-hPMAtz0SEnlpnpdGQUu4GIuE5qwMe7MnqT
My map doesn’t look as nice because someone kept it in the back of a Datsun station wagon and used it as a joke prop.
You have to get ones that used to be at rest areas and stuff that are comically large and impractical to use in a car. Much less try to fold.
Your username confuses me.
I have two sets of these that I use. When one of them’s for when I’m off road and off-grid and very little works. The other one so that way I can have my kids look at just general road atlases as we travel quite a bit they enjoy seeing and trying to find where we’re at. They will come in handy in case of anything happening as far as connectivity and stuff like that.
Protip, you can use the app comaps on android. It downloads and stores the maps for the regions you want entirely offline. The off-road maps are stunning where I am, detail far beyond what google has
Wish they had a desktop version
Edit - apparently there is on flathub now, nice
Normally I use onX for off road. It’s great so far.
Edit: not sure why all the open street maps show my address incorrectly. It’s frustrating. I had to change it in one app already, not creating another account to add this one change.
If you contribute the change to OSM, it’ll update on them all. I believe that’s what comaps edits do, hence using the openstreetmap account instead of comap account
OnX looks great, price is wild tho
Most people don’t know how unbelievably fucked the world would be if Russia did this on a consistent basis. The entire stock market runs on GPS for nanosecond timing of trades. Shipping, trucking, trains, planes all use GPS. Sure, all of them CAN operate without GPS, but the delays would be enormous because of how efficient GPS is and how automated a lot of things are. Communications systems use GPS for timing to sync up. Farms use GPS for accurate planting and picking of vegetables.
Lol as if critical systems don’t simply trust gps if you are in a field where you actually need to have that accurate time you have fail over and multiple sources over multiple media. Spoofing gps will fuck with the “little” players that can’t really afford to play.
The entire stock market runs on GPS for nanosecond timing of trades.
Funny you should mention this. At work we built a time delivery system on our fiber optic network (based on WhiteRabbit from CERN) with the national lab who generates our countries UTC contribution, and a stock market operator became one of our early customers.
Getting your timing source through fiber is definitely the best way to go, as long as you have a backup timing source OTA like GPS and other GNSS in case the fiber gets cut.
This is true but it’s not only GPS - it’s the whole array of GNSS and associated tech.
Modern receivers SHOULD be using whatever GNSS is in view, including Galileo, QZSS, GPS, Beidou, and GLONASS. They SHOULD be internet connected to get authentication and trust certificates.
However, there are 10 billion pieces of GNSS receivers out there, so not all of them are modernized.
Also, many power grids are reliant on GPS to synchronize power plants to keep the power in-phase.
they’d also fuck themselves
I mean, they have their own system: GLONASS. Their closest ally in China also has their system: Beidou. Many of their trading partners use Beidou or a mix of Galileo (EU’s system) and GPS and any other system in view. They are jamming GPS over a wide swath of territory already, so they know how to handle it within their borders. The world economy would crash, but it would be less of a crash in countries allied with China. Also, Russia’s economy is so fucked right now that a worldwide crash would just be a blip.
If Russia did this to the world they’d be declaring war on everyone. China wouldn’t stand for it and they would likely act.
Yeah, like, what nation wouldn’t see this as an act of war if deployed on a targeted and continous scale?
The thing is, China has their own GNSS called Beidou (pronounced like Play-Dough if I’ve been informed correctly). China has spent the last 10 years convincing non-aligned countries (Brazil and most of South America, many African nations, etc) to switch to using it instead of GPS. An attack by Russia would be “condemned” by China but would actually be a boon to them and their allies. Europe has their own GNSS, too, but it is much less widely used.
Oh I hadn’t realized that Beidou-3 has global coverage. I thought that was still a regional system. Thanks for mentioning countries outside of their earlier area of coverage
It’d be like Y2K, but for real.
I say, do it?
I watched a video on this recently. Really interesting, especially how the researchers figured out it was a Russian satellite in a really high orbit. All it takes is a low-power burst to overwhelm the GPS network because it runs on such low powered, sensitive signals. They theorize the Russians were testing for very brief windows to see how well it world work. They could jam these signals anywhere over the Earth. Same for other nations too.
please by all means share this video
It was probably this one by Veritasium.
Yes, that was it. Thanks.
All it takes is a low-power burst to overwhelm the GPS network because it runs on such low powered, sensitive signals.
The signals aren’t very sensitive, quite the opposite, they’re chosen because they can be very easily detected even at low powers. If you want to jam GNSS from the ground you don’t need a lot of power because the satellites are so far away and their signal is so low. If you want to jam it from a satellite you need quite a lot of power, especially if you consider that the suspected satellite constellation has twice the apogee of the GPS constellation. Also you don’t need a burst of power, you need sustained power to really jam GNSS, the suspected satellites only did bursts because they’re suspected of just testing their system.
I deal with this every day with the dark fleet using four enterprise AIS tracking systems and can 100% confirm this is accurate about GNSS systems.
GPS satellites send at like 25W of power. Naively I would think you could make that 2.5kW on a satellite without issues, probably even more.
I watched the Veritasium episode on it just yesterday! The other theory is that it was actually being used for covert signals and the disruption was secondary.
I thought that was the cover story. They deliberately used a channel partially in the bandwidth for some deniability. It isn’t like they didn’t know what bandwidth GPS used when they designed the satellite.
last I checked that channel was owned by private equity so take it with a grain of salt
Considering the impact of these tests, that doesn’t seem likely. You wouldn’t be sending covert messages in a way that would be so heavily scrutinized. I know it was a theory presented during the video, but that’s just journalistic integrity.
And ultimately, even if they were covert messages, now they also know they can disrupt gps
I think the point was less about making the messages undetectable as it was about making them unjammable. In order to stop their transmission, we would have to essentially shut down GPS for the entire EU. So you might use that frequency to send critical, must-have messages.
Especially once a second signal was noticed that was almost exactly the frequency used by the Chinese GPS system, as mentioned in the Veritasium video.
Yes, that’s the video I watched. Good stuff.
But my phone has GLONASS too?
Apparently al these systems use about the same radio spectrum, so you could jam them all with similar signals.
Same tech
Article should say GNSS
Trains don’t need gps, do they?
GPS is used a lot in logistics for real-time tracking of trains, trucks, wagons and containers. Of course they don’t need GPS to move, but you need it to coordinate transportation. The train needs to be there on time when the ship arrives, the truck needs to be there in time for the train.
If that process doesn’t work it isn’t only costly, the disruptions propagate. As in your train or flight will be delayed, or you’ll be late for work due to traffic.
Source: I worked for a logistics company and was responsible for a bug that led to trucks being backed up for kilometers in several locations, requiring the police.
I mean, neither do cars or planes.
Planes don’t? That plane flying off course and getting shot down lead to GPS signals being made accessible to the public.
VFR pilots aren’t even allowed to use GPS for primary navigation. Those don’t fly bigger airplanes but visual flight is still taught and used to this day
Celestial navigation is still taught. Hard to use in certain weather conditions though.
Wasn’t taught when I went to flight school, or in any country AFAIK. Meanwhile VFR are taught to pretty much every single pilot today and they need to fly using them before learning instrument flight, that is all over the world.
It helps a lot, but planes were navigating the world long before the invention of GPS.
They also used to go off course and get shot down.
Well, you’ve not specified what shoot down incident you’re talking about but I’d argue the fault probably lies with the trigger happy air defenders not IDing their targets.
My guess is he means Korean Air Lines Flight 007, which was caused by a mistake the Pilots made and a trigger happy/incompetent sovjet Airforce.
“GPS” would mean GNSS satellite systems like GPS, as well as terrestrial systems like AGPS and base-station-based triangulation. Given that modern train control systems involve transponders alongside the railway line, these can be used as well. Railway lines running through tunnels in particular would rely on non-satellite systems.
Rail lines use multiple redundant navigation and safety systems. GPS is one of them.
Russia and Iran stole a drone a few years back. They did it by jamming and spoofing gps signals
They aren’t the only ones.
