I feel like it’s the responsibility of world leaders who claim to support to democracy to strongly condemn governments like the US that are being blatantly fascist as well as the systems that are strengthening its presence in their own countries. They’re the ones giving the Yanks a free pass by handling them with kid gloves!
As a “yank”. Please! You are absolutely right. Europe likes to maintain these “ideas” of international law and they love to condemn America. But unless there is actual material action against it it’s doing nothing but pretending that the crimes of America and Israel aren’t “bad enough yet”. And I don’t feel like they will ever reach that threshold. It’s finger wagging and nothing else.
The victims are in Gaza, Venezuela, Cuba, Ukraine, and countless other non European countries. Europeans aren’t victims of American empire. Cry me a fucking river. Europeans are beneficiaries of American empire. You don’t get to wash your hands of it when it starts dying and is run by fascist.
Some of us are fighting it in America. The least you can do is stop pretending that some economic instability makes you a fucking victim.
I tell you who is crying a fucking river - fucking yanks like you who think putting a bumper sticker on their car is “protest”. I’ve spent time in Ukraine, I’ve had Ryssian soldiers - supported by YOUR president - try to lynch me as a NATO spy. I know what it’s like to wake up to a rocket hitting the building next door to the one you are sleeping in, and I know what is like to drive gingerly around the wreckage of a car that’s been hit by a drone and will never forget how car parts and body parts seem to almost meld together in the wreckage.
So with literally ALL due respect - go fuck yourself.
I had a () in my comment that originally said (except Ukraine). But I removed it because I thought it was clear because I mentioned Ukraine specifically. It felt redundant. I reread my comment a couple times before posting usually.
Like, I don’t know what you want here mate. You hallucinated something to be offended by.
I don’t know your life story mate. You’re a random person saying they are “European”. If you call “Europe” a victim of American Imperialism I’m going to fucking laugh at that. Because Europeans, in general, do not include Ukraine or anything east of Poland as part of Europe. I’m sorry if you live east of there. But you should know better than anyone that reality given the history of the people that live there. America and “Europe” are more than willing to sacrifice the lives of “Eastern Europe”. And I wouldn’t be making comments pretending that they treat Eastern European states with any equality.
This type of response is the exact type of thing that makes me worry about Europe.
Like, you’re talking to someone who is very much involved in working to “sort shit out” over here. My comment was asking Europeans how they feel. How anti fascist see their own social democracys or liberal democracys are responding to America lashing out and whether they expect actual resistance.
It’s not something you should feel attacked by at all. And, like it or not, you’re in the same global “house” mate.
Look, what the guy said might have been crude, but he’s not wrong. It doesn’t matter to the rest of the world whether one American, or another, is resisting US fascism. It makes no fundamental difference to the globe.
You really need to step outside of your perspective.
The ICC was set up to hold war criminals accountable. The US fought against it since the beginning and is still fighting against it now. Trump wasn’t president when it was set up. The US just wants to go rogue in international affairs. That’s where we come in. The international bit.
To the rest of the world, we just want the US to just shut the fudge up and leave us alone. We don’t need American advice, and don’t want it. It’s like a neighbour offering advice about our fire regulations when their own house is burning to the actual ground. Pull out of NATO, hit us with tariffs, start stupid and unnecessary wars and all the other dangerous crap. Just leave us out of it. Like the guy said, your country took yourselves out of the global community. Fine. Keep your advice about how to fix Europe to yourself until you learn how to provide healthcare and basic services to your own citizens. It wasn’t for nothing that your ridiculous tipping culture was a shock to Europeans during the world cup. In Europe service staff are paid a living wage. To them, tipping is the cream, not the cake.
I apologise for the slightly hostile tone, and don’t mean it towards you personally. I also know that 50% of Americans don’t want this, but the other 50% come across as pretty toxic.
The minute you declare that you are only interested in American values and that you are not accountable to the world then you lose the right for the rest of us to pay you any regard. Your system produced Trump twice. Twice! We know that you can pull that trick at any election, and the chaos returns. Europe and other countries are now building guardrails. We have to, but it’s not what we want. It’s too exhausting.
The minute you declare that you are only interested in American values and that you are not accountable to the world then you lose the right for the rest of us to pay you any regard.
Ok, but by your own admission I didn’t do this. Did I do this? I literally showed interest in Europe and how Europeans are dealing with the consequences of American Fascism.
To the rest of the world, we just want the US to just shut the fudge up and leave us alone.
Sure. That would be great. But that’s not happening anytime soon. I get this type of response from Europeans here often. Like the answer is obviously not to plug your ears and close your eyes.
I feel like anytime I point to issues in Europe and say “hey, that’s a lot like the shit that happened here that lead to Fascism. You guys should be concerned” the response by Europeans is to ignore it because “America is so bad by comparison”.
Like, I don’t even get responses like, “nah, that’s different because xy and z”. I just get garbage “shut up” responses. Which only makes me assume that those problems are being ignored.
Having shit governments are not a competition. And America being shit doesn’t make other shit not shit.
It feels often like Europeans are even LESS class conscious than a lot of Americans now. Which is why I get all of this “this country, your country, my country” talk. With zero discussion of class and how American capitalist are influencing the leadership and elections of all of Europe. It’s this false belief in national identity over class identity.
You and I have significantly more in common as members of the working class then you or I have with the leaders of our countries. But I often can’t get a European to admit that.
When Europeans hate America. I often feel like “dude, you don’t hate America enough”. It seems to be a redirection of hatred onto individual Americans while ignoring the American capitalist direct influence in their own government. If I point that out it’s not me flexing American influence. It’s me saying it’s fucking bad. My hate is pure.
First of all, I am not referring to you personally. Nor Americans like you. Unfortunately, by having the system you guys have, it makes no fundamental difference. The States are doing untold damage, and if you get lumped into the mix against your will, it is still being done in your name regardless.
The rest of the world are not plugging our ears - we are being held hostage. I just filled up my car today and paid an eye-watering amount. I didn’t vote for that, neither did several hundred million of us.
I’m sorry, but while I am intensely interested in how you guys are going to put this right, I’m less interested in American views on international issues.
By the way, not saying that we don’t have our own problems, we certainly do, but we are dealing with them behind the scenes quietly, such as dropping as much US software and hardware as possible. Trump has been a boon for national infrastructure development.
Oh, take Australia, for example. They have supported US foreign policy for over 80 years. They have supported every US war since WW2. That stopped dead this year. The public announcements from the government have been neutral, but the actions speak for themselves.
Anyway, I’m at pains for wishing you guys the best, especially the good people such as yourself. I hope that you can figure it out somehow.
First of all, I am not referring to you personally.
I didn’t think so. I guess you were just trying to explain the sentiment.
I just filled up my car today and paid an eye-watering amount. I didn’t vote for that, neither did several hundred million of us.
I think you place too much power on liberal democracy. The American working class feels your same exact feelings; the only difference being that they have to reflect on the uselessness of their vote.
My worry for Europe (and Australia as you mention) is that once Trump is gone, the aesthetic repulsion to Trump goes with it. That many governments will be happy to rejoin America in it’s crimes across the world. Just as long as the gas prices drop.
It’s why I try to talk about fascism more generally. It’s not something that goes away when Trump does and it’s not unique to America. I think a lot of Europe thinks we can “go back to normal”. When in America, it’s very clear, even to the wine mom’s, that there is no fixing this without a massive change. They may not know exactly what that change is. But if the socialist do not take power here in America; I do not see a path away from fascism remaining in America and spreading to Europe.
We need comrades in Europe to understand that their liberal democracies will not protect them. And any resistance to American Fascism in Europe strengthens our resistance here.
We can’t fix this by being frustrated with individuals. We must be critical and ruthless to systems. But we must be understanding and cooperate with individuals that have the same material goals.
It’s the “at the gas pump” frustration. The delusion that someone in Europe feels helpless but someone in American is somehow in control. Again, this is a conflict of class, it’s not really a struggle between nations.
I do understand that the capitalist system is broke. We see it too in our own countries, but you are certainly downplaying the US role in this catastrophe. You really need to stop telling us to put out that cigarette when America is the primary culprit in spraying gasoline over everyone.
In our countries we can reasonably dump a bad leader, and we do on the regular. But you guys?? Plus, even our evil pricks understand that the elections are fair so they have at least play a level of persuasion. That is the tricky bit - on a level playing ground it is quite difficult to go the full fascist. Ask Italy and France who are always just about to elect someone like Trump, but never quite manage to.
I do appreciate the “we’re all in this together guys”, vibe, but you and us are still leagues apart. It’s for this reason nobody is buying that argument. I needn’t tell you that Europe and most of Asia are crab walking away. If you think that makes me happy think again. You are making all this a gift to China who looks serious, reasonable and sensible by comparison.
I think our fundamental disagreement is that you believe that liberal democracy, specifically the flavor of it in America, actually results in the will of the people being enacted.
That’s not how it works in America. The candidates on the ballot (especially the president) are pre approved choices from our ruling class. The only “democracy” that exists here is that of the class with wealth and power.
You are witnessing a democracy of the ruling class, that spends it’s money for their preferred candidate for their preferred capitalist interest. Once the ballot is in the hands of the average American they are only choosing between the interest of one member of the ruling class over another member.
There was no choice for “don’t bomb Gaza” on the ballot. You can be frustrated with the lack of direct action from Americans. I am as well. But, then you’d also have to be frustrated with that same lack of direct action from Europeans. Which is really what I’m trying to push. The importance of direct action and the hopelessness you will feel when the uselessness of your liberal democracy is exposed and your state turns to facism.
I feel like you should sort your own fucking house out before worrying about anyone else’s.
The days of Yanks getting a free pass to lecture everyone else are long gone.
I feel like it’s the responsibility of world leaders who claim to support to democracy to strongly condemn governments like the US that are being blatantly fascist as well as the systems that are strengthening its presence in their own countries. They’re the ones giving the Yanks a free pass by handling them with kid gloves!
As a “yank”. Please! You are absolutely right. Europe likes to maintain these “ideas” of international law and they love to condemn America. But unless there is actual material action against it it’s doing nothing but pretending that the crimes of America and Israel aren’t “bad enough yet”. And I don’t feel like they will ever reach that threshold. It’s finger wagging and nothing else.
Yeah, blame the victims, go ahead.
Sort. Your. Own. Shithole. Country. Out.
The victims are in Gaza, Venezuela, Cuba, Ukraine, and countless other non European countries. Europeans aren’t victims of American empire. Cry me a fucking river. Europeans are beneficiaries of American empire. You don’t get to wash your hands of it when it starts dying and is run by fascist.
Some of us are fighting it in America. The least you can do is stop pretending that some economic instability makes you a fucking victim.
Ukraine is not a European country then?
I tell you who is crying a fucking river - fucking yanks like you who think putting a bumper sticker on their car is “protest”. I’ve spent time in Ukraine, I’ve had Ryssian soldiers - supported by YOUR president - try to lynch me as a NATO spy. I know what it’s like to wake up to a rocket hitting the building next door to the one you are sleeping in, and I know what is like to drive gingerly around the wreckage of a car that’s been hit by a drone and will never forget how car parts and body parts seem to almost meld together in the wreckage.
So with literally ALL due respect - go fuck yourself.
I had a () in my comment that originally said (except Ukraine). But I removed it because I thought it was clear because I mentioned Ukraine specifically. It felt redundant. I reread my comment a couple times before posting usually.
Like, I don’t know what you want here mate. You hallucinated something to be offended by.
I don’t know your life story mate. You’re a random person saying they are “European”. If you call “Europe” a victim of American Imperialism I’m going to fucking laugh at that. Because Europeans, in general, do not include Ukraine or anything east of Poland as part of Europe. I’m sorry if you live east of there. But you should know better than anyone that reality given the history of the people that live there. America and “Europe” are more than willing to sacrifice the lives of “Eastern Europe”. And I wouldn’t be making comments pretending that they treat Eastern European states with any equality.
This type of response is the exact type of thing that makes me worry about Europe.
Like, you’re talking to someone who is very much involved in working to “sort shit out” over here. My comment was asking Europeans how they feel. How anti fascist see their own social democracys or liberal democracys are responding to America lashing out and whether they expect actual resistance.
It’s not something you should feel attacked by at all. And, like it or not, you’re in the same global “house” mate.
Look, what the guy said might have been crude, but he’s not wrong. It doesn’t matter to the rest of the world whether one American, or another, is resisting US fascism. It makes no fundamental difference to the globe.
You really need to step outside of your perspective.
The ICC was set up to hold war criminals accountable. The US fought against it since the beginning and is still fighting against it now. Trump wasn’t president when it was set up. The US just wants to go rogue in international affairs. That’s where we come in. The international bit.
To the rest of the world, we just want the US to just shut the fudge up and leave us alone. We don’t need American advice, and don’t want it. It’s like a neighbour offering advice about our fire regulations when their own house is burning to the actual ground. Pull out of NATO, hit us with tariffs, start stupid and unnecessary wars and all the other dangerous crap. Just leave us out of it. Like the guy said, your country took yourselves out of the global community. Fine. Keep your advice about how to fix Europe to yourself until you learn how to provide healthcare and basic services to your own citizens. It wasn’t for nothing that your ridiculous tipping culture was a shock to Europeans during the world cup. In Europe service staff are paid a living wage. To them, tipping is the cream, not the cake.
I apologise for the slightly hostile tone, and don’t mean it towards you personally. I also know that 50% of Americans don’t want this, but the other 50% come across as pretty toxic.
The minute you declare that you are only interested in American values and that you are not accountable to the world then you lose the right for the rest of us to pay you any regard. Your system produced Trump twice. Twice! We know that you can pull that trick at any election, and the chaos returns. Europe and other countries are now building guardrails. We have to, but it’s not what we want. It’s too exhausting.
Ok, but by your own admission I didn’t do this. Did I do this? I literally showed interest in Europe and how Europeans are dealing with the consequences of American Fascism.
Sure. That would be great. But that’s not happening anytime soon. I get this type of response from Europeans here often. Like the answer is obviously not to plug your ears and close your eyes.
I feel like anytime I point to issues in Europe and say “hey, that’s a lot like the shit that happened here that lead to Fascism. You guys should be concerned” the response by Europeans is to ignore it because “America is so bad by comparison”.
Like, I don’t even get responses like, “nah, that’s different because xy and z”. I just get garbage “shut up” responses. Which only makes me assume that those problems are being ignored.
Having shit governments are not a competition. And America being shit doesn’t make other shit not shit.
It feels often like Europeans are even LESS class conscious than a lot of Americans now. Which is why I get all of this “this country, your country, my country” talk. With zero discussion of class and how American capitalist are influencing the leadership and elections of all of Europe. It’s this false belief in national identity over class identity.
You and I have significantly more in common as members of the working class then you or I have with the leaders of our countries. But I often can’t get a European to admit that.
When Europeans hate America. I often feel like “dude, you don’t hate America enough”. It seems to be a redirection of hatred onto individual Americans while ignoring the American capitalist direct influence in their own government. If I point that out it’s not me flexing American influence. It’s me saying it’s fucking bad. My hate is pure.
First of all, I am not referring to you personally. Nor Americans like you. Unfortunately, by having the system you guys have, it makes no fundamental difference. The States are doing untold damage, and if you get lumped into the mix against your will, it is still being done in your name regardless.
The rest of the world are not plugging our ears - we are being held hostage. I just filled up my car today and paid an eye-watering amount. I didn’t vote for that, neither did several hundred million of us.
I’m sorry, but while I am intensely interested in how you guys are going to put this right, I’m less interested in American views on international issues.
By the way, not saying that we don’t have our own problems, we certainly do, but we are dealing with them behind the scenes quietly, such as dropping as much US software and hardware as possible. Trump has been a boon for national infrastructure development.
Oh, take Australia, for example. They have supported US foreign policy for over 80 years. They have supported every US war since WW2. That stopped dead this year. The public announcements from the government have been neutral, but the actions speak for themselves.
Anyway, I’m at pains for wishing you guys the best, especially the good people such as yourself. I hope that you can figure it out somehow.
I didn’t think so. I guess you were just trying to explain the sentiment.
I think you place too much power on liberal democracy. The American working class feels your same exact feelings; the only difference being that they have to reflect on the uselessness of their vote.
My worry for Europe (and Australia as you mention) is that once Trump is gone, the aesthetic repulsion to Trump goes with it. That many governments will be happy to rejoin America in it’s crimes across the world. Just as long as the gas prices drop.
It’s why I try to talk about fascism more generally. It’s not something that goes away when Trump does and it’s not unique to America. I think a lot of Europe thinks we can “go back to normal”. When in America, it’s very clear, even to the wine mom’s, that there is no fixing this without a massive change. They may not know exactly what that change is. But if the socialist do not take power here in America; I do not see a path away from fascism remaining in America and spreading to Europe.
We need comrades in Europe to understand that their liberal democracies will not protect them. And any resistance to American Fascism in Europe strengthens our resistance here.
We can’t fix this by being frustrated with individuals. We must be critical and ruthless to systems. But we must be understanding and cooperate with individuals that have the same material goals.
It’s the “at the gas pump” frustration. The delusion that someone in Europe feels helpless but someone in American is somehow in control. Again, this is a conflict of class, it’s not really a struggle between nations.
I do understand that the capitalist system is broke. We see it too in our own countries, but you are certainly downplaying the US role in this catastrophe. You really need to stop telling us to put out that cigarette when America is the primary culprit in spraying gasoline over everyone.
In our countries we can reasonably dump a bad leader, and we do on the regular. But you guys?? Plus, even our evil pricks understand that the elections are fair so they have at least play a level of persuasion. That is the tricky bit - on a level playing ground it is quite difficult to go the full fascist. Ask Italy and France who are always just about to elect someone like Trump, but never quite manage to.
I do appreciate the “we’re all in this together guys”, vibe, but you and us are still leagues apart. It’s for this reason nobody is buying that argument. I needn’t tell you that Europe and most of Asia are crab walking away. If you think that makes me happy think again. You are making all this a gift to China who looks serious, reasonable and sensible by comparison.
I think our fundamental disagreement is that you believe that liberal democracy, specifically the flavor of it in America, actually results in the will of the people being enacted.
That’s not how it works in America. The candidates on the ballot (especially the president) are pre approved choices from our ruling class. The only “democracy” that exists here is that of the class with wealth and power.
You are witnessing a democracy of the ruling class, that spends it’s money for their preferred candidate for their preferred capitalist interest. Once the ballot is in the hands of the average American they are only choosing between the interest of one member of the ruling class over another member.
There was no choice for “don’t bomb Gaza” on the ballot. You can be frustrated with the lack of direct action from Americans. I am as well. But, then you’d also have to be frustrated with that same lack of direct action from Europeans. Which is really what I’m trying to push. The importance of direct action and the hopelessness you will feel when the uselessness of your liberal democracy is exposed and your state turns to facism.